Vw Eurovan Engine Starts but Does Not Continue Running
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:55 pm Post subject: EuroVan immediately stalls upon start, need help in Phoenix |  |
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| Hello, I am in Phoenix, Arizona (Scottsdale to be more precise). I have a new to me 2001 VW EuroVan. It sat for about 2 weeks, then I went to start it today and it had a dead battery. I bought a new battery and now it starts, but immediately stalls. The Van is new to me, it was delivered here about 2 weeks ago by a shipping company and was waiting for me to come to Phoenix to pick it up. It ran well enough for the shipping company to drive it up on the delivery truck and back off the truck when they got here. I got a lift down to Phoenix to pick it up today, now I need to get it running so I can get home. I was expecting a running car to be waiting for me. Anyone know of what may be the problem? Maybe something I can do? Anyone know someone that will work on it cheaply in the Phoenix area? Any help appreciated. Thanks, | |
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: EuroVan immediately stalls upon start, need help in Phoe | | ||
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Sounds like there's a vacuum line off somewhere- could you have knocked a hose loose installing the battery? I just shot an Email to a friend of mine in Scottsdale who has an '04 Jetta and a good mech in the area that she really likes. Hopefully I'll hear back soon. | |||
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: EuroVan immediately stalls upon start, need help in Phoe | | ||
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Sounds very possible, there was a lot of stuff over and around the battery. I tried to be careful, but it was tight. I don't see anything that looks wrong though. Let me know what you hear. Thanks! | |||
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:37 am Post subject: | |
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| My 02 EV was doing exactly the same thing....start up then immediately shut down, followed by some (alot of) cranking to get started again. No codes. My wife bought and installed a new battery (even though I know/am positive my battery was good) and the problem disappeared. Just for S&G, try completely disconnecting your battery for an hour or so and hook it back up to see what happens. | |
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: EuroVan immediately stalls upon start, need help in Phoe | | ||||
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Sorry it took so long, but here you go: Keep us posted. | |||||
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:38 pm Post subject: | |
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| This morning it started right up. I took it to a shop in Phoenix before I turned it off to make sure I didn't get stuck again. The shop spent two hours of diagnosis time, was able to reproduce the problem, but wasn't yet at a solution. At that time it seemed to be starting every time. The looked at the codes and said the Imobilizer was being triggered, but they were unsure why. At the end of two hours I was told they suspected I needed to replace the Instrument Cluster. I was given two options: (a) replace the Instrument Cluster or (b) authorize another hour of diagnosis time to be sure the problem is the Instrument Cluster. I chose option (c), drive home. I was also told I needed a new ABS Controller. Thoughts? Does this diagnosis sound right? Could a bad Instrument Cluster intermittently cause the Imobilizer to falsely engage? | |
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject: | | ||
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My EV does not have an immobilizer, but my wife's new Beetle does, and it had the exact same issue. The dealer spent two weeks trying to reproduce the issue but could not. We were getting an immobilizer fault. In researching the fix, it turns out replacing the instrument cluster was one suggested fix. The immobilizer is part of the cluster in the Beetle, so maybe it is also in the EV. In the Beetle there were only three parts to the immob: the chip in the key, the reader near the ignition switch and the cluster. We haven't had the problem for the several months since we got it back, even though the dealer said they did nothing (and charged us nothing). Good luck. | |||
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: | | ||
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[quote="tds3pete"]
You got a much better deal than I did. I paid $186.40 for them to do nothing (other than begin diagnostics). Let's pray that I have the same result though, the problem just goes away... The mechanic's hand written note in the paperwork I was given says "Immobilizer, Is this part of the Inst. Cluster?" Apparently he didn't know either... Might as well just buy a whole new cluster, right? heh... I wish I could just yank the Immobilizer out. The Mechanic said if I did that I'd only have 3rd gear left. Not sure if he was being literal or if he just meant it would break a lot of other things. I see some 1993 EVs being parted out. Will their parts work in a 2001? Is there a place to look up what year parts work? I do not think I have the funds to buy a new IC, but perhaps a new-to-me one would work. -Jason | |||
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: | |
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| Just a stupid thought... if your hands are dirty, say, after installing the battery, and some of that dirt somehow got on the key reader... could that cause a glitch? I know that the key batteries cause a lot of these issues. | |
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:19 am Post subject: | | ||||
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[quote="VWjsin"]
....The instrument cluster is separate from the immobilizer on your Eurovan, I'm glad you didn't buy a new cluster. And to answer your question no one from an early Eurovan will not work in your van, there is a good chance that it is not working right in it own van as they are common to go bad. Andrew- | |||||
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: | | ||
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Perhaps the battery going flat is to blame for the ABS and traction control dash lights too? Hopefully I don't really need a new ABS Controller or a new Instrument Cluster. I have two keys that work the ignition. When the problem starting the EV happened, I tried them both many times and neither worked. The code that the mechanic pulled using the computer says: They also pulled these codes: 18057 - Powertrain Data Bus Those were the codes that the mechanic seemed to think were important and those are the parts he wanted to replace. There were also more codes that he didn't seem to think were important: Now that I can get the car to start, it is running rough at low speeds. The mechanic believed the cause was bad spark plugs on #3 and #5. It was throwing codes for misfires on those cylinders. I do not notice any problem at freeway speed. I do not know if this problem existed before or not. The EV is new-to-me and the shipping company dropped it off to me with a dead battery. The seller claimed there were no mechanical issues and was recently gone through by a VW Mechanic to confirm no mechanical issues. But it sure arrived with a hand full of them! I plan to have the spark plugs replaced ASAP. Any other ideas on what could be going on? Maybe some electrical issue that explains all of this? -Jason | |||
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: | | ||
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It is sitting in front of my mechanic's shop. He is stumped. He is not a VW expert though. I'm not sure what to do... | |||
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:15 pm Post subject: | | ||
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Right now we are stuck on getting it to start. The immobilizer has kicked back on and it hasn't started for several days. Do you still suggest a re-set of the ABS and/or instrument cluster? How is this done? The van is now with my general mechanic, not the VW mechanic. He is a good mechanic, but not a VW expert. He just opened his own small shop, so he doesn't have a lot of fancy devices the dealerships do. Any ideas on getting past the immobilizer blocking the engine start? | |||
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject: Current status | |
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| Here is the current status that I just wrote up to post on the EuroVan Yahoo Group. This is the full story up to now. The short version is: still doesn't start, engine blocked by immobilizer. I have a new-to-me 2001 EuroVan. I had it shipped to me from out of state. The shipper claims it was inspected by a certified VW mechanic and claims it was without any mechanical problem other than a weak battery when it left the shop. He says the shop did the following work to make sure it was in top condition to sell: water pump, serpentine belt, ignition switch, and flushed the coolant system. The seller reports to me "I had the issue with the immobilizer blocking the engine start as well. I was told by the VW mechanic that when you change the ignition switch then the computer has to be reprogrammed so the immobilizer can function. The mechanic then checked diagnostics on the Eurovan so the codes would work the immobilizer." He then shares that it ran fine for him long enough to ship it to me. It was delivered to the nearest metropolis and sat for 2 weeks before I could pick it up. The very first time I tried to start it, it had a dead battery. I replaced the battery with a new one and tried to start it and encountered a second problem: it seemed to start, but immediately quit. The next day the car started and I drove it strait to a VW mechanic. When driving the ABS and traction control lights were on. The VW mechanic read the codes with the computer and told me about the following errors: 17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer They also pulled these codes: 18057 - Powertrain Data Bus Those were the codes that the mechanic seemed to think were important and those are the parts he wanted to replace. There were also more codes that he didn't seem to think were important: In addition to these codes, there was a code for hard misfire on #3 and #5. The mechanic did some testing and said he was pretty sure it was just bad spark plugs. The VW mechanic already charged me $200 for diagnosis labor with no real diagnosis expect he thought that we *might* need to replace the instrument cluster, immobilizer, spark plugs, and ABS controller. With parts from VW and the VW mechanic's labor rates, it sounded like a multi-thousand dollar job, so I left. The van started again and I took it to my usual mechanic, whom isn't a VW expert, but a good general mechanic. The van has been sitting in front of my mechanic's shop for a week now. He doesn't seem to have any idea on what to do. So, I turn to this group and pray you might have some ideas for me. If there are other problems, they can wait. Right now, let's get it started. Can the Immobilizer be bypassed? Should it be replaced? Why wont the van start? Do I really need to replace all of the parts the VW mechanic suggested: instrument cluster, immobilizer, and ABS controller? Where is the immobilizer anyhow? Can it be purchased separately? I suppose it would be best to purchase it with the ignition and the keys from a part out? Ideas? Please help! Thanks! -Jason | |
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:49 pm Post subject: | |
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| Jason, I do a lot of my own work on my Vanagons. When my EV acts up, however, I take it straight to the VW dealer (not a just a VW mechanic) and let them diagnose my problem and prepare myself to bleed $$$$. I love my Vanagons but I tolerate my Eurovan$. | |
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:26 am Post subject: | |
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| EuroVans from 12.00 > are equipped with Immobilizer Generation III. Notes: On Board Diagnostic of the anti-theft immobilizer system is to be carried out exclusively using the VAS 5051 Vehicle Diagnostic Testing and Information System. 7-digit PIN, general information => VW-T4-EE04-01-002-0201-9. In addition to the normal data exchange between the immobilizer control module and ignition key, Gen. III includes data exchange between the immobilizer control module and Engine Control Module (ECM). Data exchange between the Immobilizer control module and ECM takes place over the "W"circuit or vehicle CAN-Bus network (CAN-Bus implemented as a running change during m.y. 2001 production). Determine data exchange method using using Function 08, Read Measuring Value Block, Display Group 001 => page VW-T4-EE04-01-002-0501-24. If a baud rate value appears in display field 1, data exchange is via the "W"circuit. If the text "Data Bus" appear in display field 1, data exchange is via the vehicle CAN Bus network. Anti-theft immobilizer system consists of: an immobilizer control module an adapted Engine Control Module (ECM) an induction coil at ignition lock adapted ignition keys with electronics (transponder / response read memory). Function Immobilizer III uses encrypted codes to increase anti-theft protection. With encrypted codes, the control module for anti-theft immobilizer randomly generates a number and transmits it to the encryption transponder in the ignition key. Each transponder contains its own fixed code. The transponder uses a specific algorithm to calculate a new number based on the transmitted number and the fixed code. This new number, the "encrypted code" is sent back to the control module for anti-theft immobilizer where it is backtracked according to the same algorithm. The backtracked number and the original, randomly generated number must match. The key is then recognized as authorized. Following recognition of the authorized key, a variable code is transmitted to the Engine Control Module (ECM). The variable code is randomly re-generated in the Engine Control Module (ECM) after each engine start and is stored in both control modules. If the variable code in the control module for anti-theft immobilizer and in the Engine Control Module (ECM) match, the engine can be started/ vehicle operated. If malfunctions occur in the sensors and components being monitored, they will be stored in the Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) memory together with an indication of the type of malfunction. The coil induction ring that read the the signal from the key can go bad at times, this may be your problem. But you really are guessing at parts unless you take it to someone that has the equipment and know-how to use it. There are ways around immobilizers although nothing quick and simple. You can not just buy and used immobilizer and key and pug it in a start the car, they need to be adapted to the ECM using a scan tool such as VCDS (VAG-Com). | |
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